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Post by Mahatma__Ganhdi on Jun 12, 2020 14:06:47 GMT -6
"Suppose that we begin to see an increase in Covid cases large enough to justify another shut down. Just as income starts to trickle back to states and they can stop paying out huge sums for relief, the brakes get thrown on again. Only this time, the Feds have already paid out $4 trillion and are going to be really stingy and state and local governments have to do like Mitch said and file for bankruptcy and/or default on bond payments.
Then services start to fail. Power bills for water and wastewater utilities don't get paid so pumps get turned off. No more police and fire men because there are no paychecks for them. Maintenance doesn't get done. Society falls apart from the ground up."
That is a perfect example of a slippery slope fallacy. The textbooks could do no better than that.
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Post by okie on Jun 12, 2020 21:27:01 GMT -6
So, Trump is coming to Tulsa on Juneteenth. This is going to be bad on many levels. BLM is already dispensing information on protests. We just had two black teens handcuffed and put in a squad car for jWalking all on camera of course. Tulsa is the site of arguable the worst race event in American history, and Covid is spiking again.
I want to go to the protest, but I will have to find other ways to contribute. I am not going on into a crowd like that. If I was 30 years old, it would be different, but I am 60 and I am too fearful for Kasty and myself.
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Post by x on Jun 13, 2020 14:55:10 GMT -6
Cheeto decided not to plan it for that day and made it look like it was his idea to renege
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Post by daneaux on Jun 15, 2020 10:01:04 GMT -6
"Suppose that we begin to see an increase in Covid cases large enough to justify another shut down. Just as income starts to trickle back to states and they can stop paying out huge sums for relief, the brakes get thrown on again. Only this time, the Feds have already paid out $4 trillion and are going to be really stingy and state and local governments have to do like Mitch said and file for bankruptcy and/or default on bond payments. Then services start to fail. Power bills for water and wastewater utilities don't get paid so pumps get turned off. No more police and fire men because there are no paychecks for them. Maintenance doesn't get done. Society falls apart from the ground up." That is a perfect example of a slippery slope fallacy. The textbooks could do no better than that. Yet you don't challenge its merit. That makes it a slippery slope argument, not a fallacy.
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Post by daneaux on Jun 15, 2020 10:12:02 GMT -6
So, Trump is coming to Tulsa on Juneteenth. This is going to be bad on many levels. BLM is already dispensing information on protests. We just had two black teens handcuffed and put in a squad car for jWalking all on camera of course. Tulsa is the site of arguable the worst race event in American history, and Covid is spiking again. I want to go to the protest, but I will have to find other ways to contribute. I am not going on into a crowd like that. If I was 30 years old, it would be different, but I am 60 and I am too fearful for Kasty and myself. I saw the jaywalking incident and wondered about the story. It looked like it was in a subdivision with very little traffic. I thought they must have been talking about The Strip or NYC where jaywalking can really present a danger. Was that just total BS charges by the cops? I'm with you on the too old to protest thing. It's hard enough just to keep it together without getting gassed or run over by a cop car or a redneck in a Hawaiian shirt. They gassed one of the crowds here again last night. The protesters are not going to stop though. I used to know a lawyer who still lives in the block on Monument Avenue where the Lee statue is. His family has lived there for generations and he has a picture of one of his ancestors in his full Confederate General uniform in his home office. I wonder if it's the noise or something else that might be keeping him awake at night.
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Post by daneaux on Jun 15, 2020 10:23:49 GMT -6
Cheeto decided not to plan it for that day and made it look like it was his idea to renege I'm surprised that they were able to reschedule on such short notice. Oh that's right. Everything else is cancelled through July. Once again, we get recommendations from the CDC to do the exact opposite of what Agent Orange does. (Thanks for that, Spike) Now that they have decided that wearing masks is actually the most effective way to prevent spreading it we can say that Trump won't use the #1 way to help his country. And now that he is creating: 1. a large indoor crowd that, 2. won't be able to social distance, 3. Probably won't be required to wear masks, 4. Will be yelling and chanting, 5. will be indoors for a prolonged amount of time; 6. will have lots of people traveling in, 7. will have those people traveling back to their homes; we can say that he has hit on just about all of the "Avoid if possibles" in the months-late guidance issued by his Centers For Disease Control and Prevention on Friday. (Did I leave any off?) Even in a state with a low rate, this is just plain stupid. But I'll bet thousands will sign the waiver and jump in with both feet.
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Post by Mahatma__Ganhdi on Jun 15, 2020 13:22:46 GMT -6
I thought I was challenging its merit by calling it slippery slope reasoning. But I can take a shot at it piece by piece, which will be helpful in demonstrating how remote the probabilities are. I shall be generous as I can be, though.
"Suppose that we begin to see an increase in Covid cases large enough to justify another shut down."
I think it is almost certain to happen in certain regions but almost certainly will not be nationwide, or even statewide in most cases. So let's give that probability a 50/50 chance or .5
"Just as income starts to trickle back to states and they can stop paying out huge sums for relief, the brakes get thrown on again. Only this time, the Feds have already paid out $4 trillion and are going to be really stingy and state and local governments have to do like Mitch said and file for bankruptcy and/or default on bond payments."
Letting states en masse file for bankruptcy is good political fodder in a speech but I think is so unlikely that I would give it a probability of less than one percent. But I am being generous so I'll give it a 10% chance or .1
"Power bills for water and wastewater utilities don't get paid so pumps get turned off."
That will never happen either. Emergency funding for the states will almost certainly be supplied to keep the sewers pumping the $%^e. But I'll be generous again and give it a 10% chance or .1
So far the very generous probability of your scenario, all of which, it seems to me, would be necessary for your conclusion, is .5*.1*.1= 0.005 or one half of 1 percent.
My real view is that the first probability is .3 the second probability .01 and the third .005 giving a probability of 0.000015 which makes this less likely an existential threat than asteroid 2006 QV89.
"Society falls apart from the ground up."
I laughed at this last bit because if you look up Slippery Slope Fallacy in Britannica the example is: " legalizing prostitution is undesirable because it would cause more marriages to break up, which would in turn cause the breakdown of the family, which would finally result in the destruction of civilization."
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Post by x on Jun 15, 2020 17:16:11 GMT -6
well, the SCOTUS got one right by all appearances. Looks like they are not going to hear California's sanctuary city case, too.
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Post by Mahatma__Ganhdi on Jun 15, 2020 17:39:37 GMT -6
Trump's first appointee wrote the majority decision also. How interesting.
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Post by daneaux on Jun 16, 2020 9:18:50 GMT -6
That was cute but a ridiculous display of statistical manipulation. I really like the part about emergency funding being supplied. Maybe this time but what about the next? Or the next? How long do you think US government debt will remain the worlds safe place for money? What will happen if the municipal bond market collapses because municipalities can't meet their obligations?
I agree that the chances are low but I believe the ramifications of failing are so great that it warrants everyone wearing masks in public all the time until we have a real treatment or a vaccine.
That will keep us off the slippery slope that is really there whether we want to admit it or not.
Since we started this discussion, we have already started to see number increasing in places where things have been relaxed. We've also see reports that mask wearing is now considered the most important facet of fighting Covid and doing business. I see it as in the national interest to prevent the spread and have established the reasoning that makes it so. That means that we can all do our patriotic duty by making the minute sacrifice of wearing a mask in public. Never have so many sacrificed so little for so many.
I can't believe that I even have to defend the idea.
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Post by daneaux on Jun 16, 2020 9:19:16 GMT -6
Trump's first appointee wrote the majority decision also. How interesting. He must be soooo proud!
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Post by daneaux on Jun 16, 2020 9:27:43 GMT -6
How does this affect your model? It looks like it just was published this morning. Would a weakened dollar hurt or help the US?
https://www.marke=+-*ch.com/story/the-dollar-is-going-to-fall-very-very-sharply-warns-prominent-yale-economist-2020-06-16
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Post by Mahatma__Ganhdi on Jun 16, 2020 15:52:04 GMT -6
"cute but a ridiculous display of statistical manipulation"
I was being generous. The real probabilities are possibly much slighter. But it is not manipulation. That is how probabilities actually work except I did not factor in the probabilities of a cure or treatment which would only reduce the likelihood of us falling down your slope.
"How long do you think US government debt will remain the worlds safe place for money? What will happen if the municipal bond market collapses because municipalities can't meet their obligations?"
The FED can buy both indefinitely to prop it up.
"I agree that the chances are low but I believe the ramifications of failing are so great"
And others can reasonably argue an opposing position without being unpatriotic.
"Would a weakened dollar hurt or help the US?"
It would help. And a 35% fall would still mean it had not given up most of the gains since the great recession.
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Post by Mahatma__Ganhdi on Jun 16, 2020 18:40:31 GMT -6
"1. a large indoor crowd that, 2. won't be able to social distance, 3. Probably won't be required to wear masks, 4. Will be yelling and chanting, 5. will be indoors for a prolonged amount of time; 6. will have lots of people traveling in, 7. will have those people traveling back to their homes"
Sounds like Church
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Post by daneaux on Jun 18, 2020 7:52:01 GMT -6
"1. a large indoor crowd that, 2. won't be able to social distance, 3. Probably won't be required to wear masks, 4. Will be yelling and chanting, 5. will be indoors for a prolonged amount of time; 6. will have lots of people traveling in, 7. will have those people traveling back to their homes" Sounds like Church It's exactly like church now that you mention it. Right down to the concept of putting faith in myths.
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