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Post by daneaux on Jun 11, 2020 8:14:21 GMT -6
"I would imagine you do things all the time that have a greater risk on another person's well being. For example, driving a car every day is probably more likely to get someone injured or killed than the spread of covid through an asymptomatic unmasked person walking by in the grocery store."
Very true. And because it is true, don't we take extensive steps to mitigate those risks? And those steps are mandated by government regulations because they are proven to save lives. So why shouldn't we do the same with this?
"If that turns out to be the case will you argue that those who cried out for a longer shutdown were unpatriotic?"
No. I will still argue that those who refuse to wear masks are unpatriotic. They, and all the people who survived their big gamble at our risks, will have just gotten lucky.
"The problem with the "Do as I think best or you are unpatriotic" should be obvious. The "with me or the enemy" I expect from FOX but not from a thinking person."
The problem with that way of thinking IS obvious. It's also obvious that this is not that kind of thinking. Our country faces its most dire threat since WWII (now since the Civil war but for different reasons) and we face it divided by politics that have distorted the very definition of patriotism. The fact is that to preserve our way of life, we may be asked to sacrifice at some time. Among mitigation efforts, wearing a mask is the second most effective behind staying home which we apparently have done to the extent of our collective patience. It's clearly in the national interest to continue mitigation efforts. That makes continued use of the second most effective means of mitigation the best we can do without further damaging the economy. That makes it patriotic to wear masks.
"Cool. But one study does not make it a fact."
No, but it doesn't mean it's not one either. There may be others. Google it if you are curious. It may prove enlightening.
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Post by Mahatma__Ganhdi on Jun 11, 2020 10:53:58 GMT -6
"So why shouldn't we do the same with this?"
In my hypothetical, the person was taking mitigating steps, such as not going out when sick. Some people drive safer than others. Are the less safe drivers unpatriotic?
"Our country faces its most dire threat since WWII"
Not sure covid19 is that great of a threat. When it comes to the impending collapse of the social order this year still pales compared to 1968.
"continued use of the second most effective means of mitigation"
Is this an abstinence or condoms argument? Don't go out, but if you do go out, wear a mask? Is going raw unpatriotic? Cause if it is Lefty will be upset.
"Google it if you are curious."
You think I didn't do that already?
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Post by daneaux on Jun 11, 2020 11:09:16 GMT -6
"Are the less safe drivers unpatriotic?"
Is unsafe driving a threat to national interests? Is Covid-19?
"Not sure covid19 is that great of a threat. When it comes to the impending collapse of the social order this year still pales compared to 1968."
It was until our mitigation efforts provided a degree of success. That's certainly a subject for debate but I'd say that anything that threatened to kill millions of Americans qualifies as a national interest.
"Is this an abstinence or condoms argument? Don't go out, but if you do go out, wear a mask? Is going raw unpatriotic? Cause if it is Lefty will be upset"
It's not the argument as much as it is giving in to the reality that we are going to ignore the best advice and a suggestion that we at least do the next best thing.
And if Lefty is still around, he must have actually been wearin' his jimihat 'cause if he'd been ridin' bareback all that time, he surely be dead.
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Post by Mahatma__Ganhdi on Jun 11, 2020 12:01:01 GMT -6
If unsafe driving is a greater threat to lives than a healthy (or possibly unsymptomatic) person walking through the grocery store without a mask then it is a greater threat to the national interest if national interest is being based on potential body count. Is smoking unpatriotic? Is drinking unpatriotic? Is eating a Big Mac unpatriotic? Heart Disease, Cancer, just a few things kill many times more people every year than Covid19 will kill this year. All could be mitigated by not smoking, drinking, eating bad food. Yet at 4th of July cookouts it is beer, smoking and grilled fatty burgers.
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Post by daneaux on Jun 11, 2020 13:57:27 GMT -6
There is no existential threat to unsafe driving for America and there is with Covid. You need to do better than that.
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Post by Mahatma__Ganhdi on Jun 11, 2020 14:35:08 GMT -6
All I say to that is there is no basis for calling Covid19 an existential threat. The only reason you gave, as far as I can tell from reading you, is the potential body count. That is demonstrably not enough, as I think I have demonstrated with the numbers.
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Post by Mahatma__Ganhdi on Jun 11, 2020 20:50:14 GMT -6
I guess what I am asking is for you to demonstrate how this is an existential threat? We already couldn't have been less prepared and this is not close to an existential threat, as far as the numbers show.
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Post by drlefty on Jun 12, 2020 7:11:51 GMT -6
I think Trump is toast and he knows it.
What is he about to do? He is gonna do something here to try and rally the support. Massive stimulus checks? War with somebody?
Something is coming......
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Post by Mahatma__Ganhdi on Jun 12, 2020 8:11:16 GMT -6
I think he should attack Seattle. Been awhile since we had a good old fashioned siege.
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Post by drlefty on Jun 12, 2020 8:34:25 GMT -6
Wouldnt surprise me if he tried to overthrow a State using military force.
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Post by drlefty on Jun 12, 2020 12:54:48 GMT -6
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Post by daneaux on Jun 12, 2020 13:08:52 GMT -6
Here's why it's existential to our country:
State and local governments have already been hit with a major double whammy. They lost huge amounts of revenue and have greatly increased expenses. They mostly have balanced budget requirements so that mean big cuts in spending are on the way. Big cuts in spending mean big layoffs and poorer services for the taxpayers.
Suppose that we begin to see an increase in Covid cases large enough to justify another shut down. Just as income starts to trickle back to states and they can stop paying out huge sums for relief, the brakes get thrown on again. Only this time, the Feds have already paid out $4 trillion and are going to be really stingy and state and local governments have to do like Mitch said and file for bankruptcy and/or default on bond payments.
Then services start to fail. Power bills for water and wastewater utilities don't get paid so pumps get turned off. No more police and fire men because there are no paychecks for them. Maintenance doesn't get done. Society falls apart from the ground up.
That's why it's an existential threat. Just because a million lives lost won't be noticed it doesn't mean that it can't ruin life for us all.
Or... once again in the event of a big uptick in cases, we could refuse to close back down and continue to let it grow. Then it might become an existential threat to our species.
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Post by daneaux on Jun 12, 2020 13:12:06 GMT -6
And the numbers only show the numbers of cases. They don't show the numbers of cases prevented by the various mitigation efforts. Those will only continue to be effective as long as they are in use.
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Post by daneaux on Jun 12, 2020 13:17:41 GMT -6
Sign here to petition the Richmond City Council to erect a statue of Richmond native Oderus Urungus of GWAR on famous Monument Avenue in place of one of the Confederate Genarals. Because the Governor's order to move the stature of Robert E,. Lee is held up by a court, the good folks at BLM have already seen fit to clear a place where Jefferson Davis stood until Monday night. www.change.org/p/richmond-richmond-erect-a-gwar-oderus-urungus-statue-in-place-of-robert-e-lee-statueTo replace the Christopher Columbus that got set on fire and dumped in Shields Lake, I suggest Dirt Woman. |
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Post by daneaux on Jun 12, 2020 13:26:10 GMT -6
I wonder if there's not some wheels turning within the Republican party that might dump him in favor of Mittens before the convention. Then Trump can take his 35% and form the Trump Party and we will have Biden if: 1. He lives that long. 2. He keeps quiet and let's Trump win it for him. 3. Nobody starts asking questions about the many things we should question. 4. He doesn't forget his name.
If not, maybe Mittens is the third party candidate.
Either way, smart Republican should try to limit the damage and distance themselves.
But they don't seem inclined which means that the pendulum is going to swing way left again. Pendulums are funny that way. The further you push them to the edge, the farther back they swing.
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